[Ken Gracey]

I gave a Beijing taxi driver a $50 tip in 20001, after he told me he only earned 6 bucks per week, he invited me home to met his family, And made me dinner, truly lovely people.

[pegi]

Peter, that is a funny question. We are all buying the cheap product because that is what IS. Have you got another choice?

Your question is not really relevant as it is not actual. There are no such product available. But there is misery for the other half of humanity . So the choice is yours.

Again, to try to answer your hypothetical question what did our parents do? Where they buy their TV. Car. Stereo. records. Washing machine. fridge, stove and so on..... Were they imported from China? Look at the crap that is being sold in the name of cheap commodities. (Then take a trip to the tip and then you will see what waste we produce in the name CHEAP). We bought what we COULD not what we WANTED. Different playing field. Don't you think so?

bitingmidge, on 12 February 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

No, Apple buys it's product from companies who employ people in more fancy sweat shops, than the clothing companies do, but they are the same companies that HP, Dell, and all those others mentioned above do.

To answer your question though Ken, would I still buy the product?

Well I bought a $6,000 MacPlus didn't I?

How much was the first MacBook, the one that looked like a handbag? $2,500?? I bought one of those too.

Yep, we'd all pay more if there was a level playing field. Or find a new hobby.

Cheers,

P

[pegi]

Difficult one that one Ken, I was face with situations like that all the time.

Ken Gracey, on 12 February 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

I gave a Beijing taxi driver a $50 tip in 20001, after he told me he only earned 6 bucks per week, he invited me home to met his family, And made me dinner, truly lovely people.

[Some Random Bloke]

We sponsor 3 kids in Africa and I'm involved in charity work in India, so this all touches close to home. It's very complicated to say the least. Charity isn't a long term solution - we want to get people off welfare! I read an article in Time or a mag like that that said the people on the dumps in Thailand aspire for their kids to get the sweatshop jobs. If it weren't for the exploitation of workers half of Asia would never have developed the way it has. And yet we can't condone those practices. But don't forget, this is a phase we went through in Europe and Britain during the industrial revolution. Taking the long view you'd hope, and expect, things to improve over time.

Apple could afford to make a few billion less on their products.

[pegi]

Alex, what reference is that? If Europe went through this phase of exploitation, in your eyes today's misery is justified?
What you are saying, is that as a human race, we don't learn anything.Hence perpetuating our greed, wars, suffering and safeguarding the privileges of the 1%.

This new form o f colonialism /exploitation is permitted, therefore we are going towards a terrible situation in my opinion.

Yes, i agree, charity is a difficult topic also. And i also agree, a few millions less for Apple is not going to make the company suffer.

[bitingmidge]

pegi, on 12 February 2012 - 07:51 PM, said:

Peter, that is a funny question. We are all buying the cheap product because that is what IS. Have you got another choice?
<snip>

We bought what we COULD not what we WANTED. Different playing field. Don't you think so?

Hi Pegi, of course the question was Ken's not mine, and I agree with your response, but we do have a choice of course.

We could choose not to buy anything. That would of course leave everyone out of work entirely so I'm not sure if anyone would be better off or not.

Your observation on our former behaviour is correct, and I am firmly convinced that our current rabid need to have EVERYTHING is but a blip in time. I cannot conceive an economic model which has everyone treated fairly yet consumer items which are incredibly economical to produce!

The end result has to be a return to the good old days. Doesn't it?

Cheers,
P

[Dave Bullard]

Pegi, not dismissing them, but saying that bad working conditions will always exist somewhere. Improve them to the point where labour becomes unaffordable (from a multinational's point of view, not from yours or mine) and that manufacturing will just move somewhere where someone else can be exploited.

Nowhere did I defend bad working conditions, just pointing out a fact of life. Other than that, if you re-read my post you'll find we actually agree.

And you're not the only one here to have seen it first-hand. As I said, I was in HK and China for 8 years, and in Africa for 25 years before that!

Cheers
Dave

[pegi]

I do not believe, Peter, that we must return to the good old days. This is out of the question. One can never go back. This is illusion.

My question is : can we as a humans find an alternative model that is not exploitative, not degrading, not humiliating and that does not perpetuate suffering? Have we not learned anything form the pseudo good old days? or before that? have we not got enough of wars and greed? Shall we drink the bitter potion till the end? That is what I am scared of and deeply concerned about.

This race to greed that is what is really frightening. (Am not religious or do belong to any political party)

bitingmidge, on 13 February 2012 - 07:36 AM, said:

Hi Pegi, of course the question was Ken's not mine, and I agree with your response, but we do have a choice of course.

We could choose not to buy anything. That would of course leave everyone out of work entirely so I'm not sure if anyone would be better off or not.

Your observation on our former behaviour is correct, and I am firmly convinced that our current rabid need to have EVERYTHING is but a blip in time. I cannot conceive an economic model which has everyone treated fairly yet consumer items which are incredibly economical to produce!

The end result has to be a return to the good old days. Doesn't it?

Cheers,
P

[pegi]

Of course Dave, working conditions are bad everywhere, even in the USA where the minimum wage is quite appalling.

I sincerely hope I am not the only one to have witness this terrible state of affairs in developing countries. In France, Australia , the USA clandestine migrants are also sweating it out and are being exploited in the same manner.

And moving on somewhere as you put it, this true. There are portable factories in the world and changing names and so on. But is not there a limit as to where they can run and set up shop? All the corners of the earth have been claimed. What else is there ? The moon maybe?

AS to where someone has been let's assume that we a fairly travelled mob in this forum. Funny you said Africa I was there also for 13 years. A child of colonialism.

Anyway these topics are also so very challenging and we must not loose sight of what is at stake. That is why we are all very involved and passionate about the world we live in.
Thanks everyone .

Dave Bullard, on 13 February 2012 - 08:08 AM, said:

Pegi, not dismissing them, but saying that bad working conditions will always exist somewhere. Improve them to the point where labour becomes unaffordable (from a multinational's point of view, not from yours or mine) and that manufacturing will just move somewhere where someone else can be exploited.

Nowhere did I defend bad working conditions, just pointing out a fact of life. Other than that, if you re-read my post you'll find we actually agree.

And you're not the only one here to have seen it first-hand. As I said, I was in HK and China for 8 years, and in Africa for 25 years before that!

Cheers
Dave

[Some Random Bloke]

pegi, on 13 February 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Alex, what reference is that? If Europe went through this phase of exploitation, in your eyes today's misery is justified?
What you are saying, is that as a human race, we don't learn anything.Hence perpetuating our greed, wars, suffering and safeguarding the privileges of the 1%.

This new form o f colonialism /exploitation is permitted, therefore we are going towards a terrible situation in my opinion.

Yes, i agree, charity is a difficult topic also. And i also agree, a few millions less for Apple is not going to make the company suffer.

Can't remember where I read it. I'm certainly not justifying this situation - exploitation is wrong. But the West moved past it (mostly) so we can look forward with hope that Asia (and hopefully the world) will at some point as well. And no, I don't think we do learn anything! If history teaches us anything it's that no one learns from history!

[Ken Gracey]

Thanks Pegi, good to see I am the only one around here, who doesn't mind sharing his views.

[golfer]

I travel to China three to four times a year, and have spent up to three months of each year there since 1990. Yes, working conditions are not up to our standard, but if we'd come as far in the past twenty years as they have, our factories would be cleaner than operating theatres. I doubt that many of the people who are screaming out about this have ever been to China, let alone gone to a factory and talked with the workers. I regularly talk with them, eat with them, work along side them and live with them, and I can tell you from first hand experience there is a lot less bitching about work conditions among them than there is in Australia about conditions here, and this lack of whinging is not because they are frightened to speak out. So to all the do gooders out there, if you haven't been there and worked alongside them and got to know them, then shut up, because you don't know what you're talking about.

[Ken Gracey]

Lol nice to have you back golfer, little buddy I missed your input.

[Islandhead]

Nice post Golfer, you raise a good point about not knowing about a subject before you talk about it.

So if all these Chinese workers you know are happy, what's with the suicides? And although that sounds like an aggressive question it's not meant to be. Is it just a media beat up or is something going on?

[Ken Gracey]

The kill them selves at Foxcomm, because they live like battery hen's, but at least battery hens see some day light.

[Islandhead]

Not in the battery hen factories I've seen Ken, but that's a different topic.

So you're saying it's not just a media beat up?

[Ken Gracey]

Who on earth, is going to write a beat up about suicide?

The stories I have seen on Foxcomm over the last few days, on channel 7 and on CNN do not paint a pretty picture, workers are afraid to speak up for fear of losing there jobs, it reminds me of Poland in the late 70s, where Leck, when we need him, or maybe we could ship Bill Shorten over he is not doing much here at the moment.

[Islandhead]

I wouldn't put it past most media outlets to beat up anything!

The only person I know (apart from what i am reading the media) i.e. Golfer (who says he knows from first hand experience) has said the workers aren't scared... Hence my question!

[Some Random Bloke]

I doubt it's evenly bad across the country. Like everywhere, some businesses are better than others.

[golfer]

Islandhead, on 13 February 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Nice post Golfer, you raise a good point about not knowing about a subject before you talk about it.

So if all these Chinese workers you know are happy, what's with the suicides? And although that sounds like an aggressive question it's not meant to be. Is it just a media beat up or is something going on?

Suicide rates are higher in Australia per capita than China.