[Ken Gracey]

Apple stores last week in various locations, were handed a petition signed by 250,000 people complaining about the miss treatment, of workers in foxcoon's factory in china, Channel 7s sunrise program also picked up on to this morning as well.

The average worker there works 6 days a week, 13 hour days for $17.00 a day. Which is disgusting, and its no wonder people there commit suicide.

So my question for the morning is in two parts... based on this shocking news

# 1 are you less likely to support apple now, or you just don't care as long as you get your apple fix you don't care

or

#2 Would you pay more for your Apple gear, if you new it would help these workers out ? and how much more would you pay ? 10% more... 50% more, or would you pay double ?

[bitingmidge]

Ken,

I'm surprised you'd add grist to the mill of that font of all that is true: "Sunrise" !

From our cushy positions none of us would think any of the workers have an easy life, but let's look at some stuff that was perhaps overlooked (I didn't see the report);
Foxconn is the largest exporter in China, and makes among other things, XBoxes, Kindle, and Wii, yet if one is to believe the reports, only people working on Apple products are "mistreated".

I have not read anything to suggest that the wages structure are any different to any other company in China, actually as a very large employer there are some who would say that conditions are better than in many other places. Before we go off at the mouth, don't we need to look at a few balancing facts?

Firstly, the richest one percent in the world - the one's that the "Occupy" movement are protesting about - according to a recent publication by World Bank Economist Branko Milanovic in his book The Haves and the Have-Nots, about half of the world's richest one percent live in the United States. So far so good.

However, if you have an after tax income of more than $34,000 you are one of them.

How easy it is for us to sit back and throw stones at those who employ "the poor people". What of those standing in the queues waiting for a vacancy?

As the world economies tip on their sides and some sort of balance occurs, don't expect to pay double, expect not to have any products which are simply aimed at consumption!

I have no answer to your question, but can see little point in throwing stones at one company.

Perhaps the answer for those who are deeply concerned would be to boycott all products made in China. But then to be consistent, you'd have to do the same for Korea and Thailand and India and Fiji and... and ... and.... Then of course you wouldn't be buying products made in a country that allows whaling, which includes Japan, Canada, most of Scandinavia and the US....

Time to have a chat to Kochie I think, it might be time to start an Aus manufacturing industry.

How much would an all Australian iPad cost, and would you buy one?

Cheers,

P

[Ken Gracey]

Hang on Pete, are you staying people on $34k a year are well off or did i read that wrong ?

[bitingmidge]

Ken Gracey, on 12 February 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

Hang on Pete, are you staying people on $34k a year are well off or did i read that wrong ?

You read correctly, but I'm not saying it.

The World Bank Economist says; if you have 34k per year, you are in the richest one percent of the population of the planet.

I say: We live here in an isolated little consumer bubble, unaware of what is really happening in the rest of the world, and it's very easy to throw stones without looking at facts!

By the way, the USA has HALF of the richest one percent in the world.

Sorry for the wake up call, but they are all quite simple facts to check!

Cheers,

P

[Dave Bullard]

Great reply, Pete. I lived in Hong Kong for eight years and travelled frequently to the mainland, and I know how bad working conditions are there. I haven't been to the Foxconn factories, but expect that conditions there aren't as bad as other factories.

As you say, it's a question of relativity ... you can't expect first-world working conditions in a third-world country, even though you can strive for it as an overseas partner/customer/investor. But you then hit the point where working conditions are so good, as in Australia, that the expense of running a factory outstrips the income you gain from those goods, as in Australia.

Almost all our products come from countries with an underpaid peasant workforce, so before we throw stones at companies like Apple we need to identify ourselves – the consumers – as the point of demand.

I think it's also a question of perception. If a person with a starving family and no education is ecstatic to find a job that has long hours, dangerous conditions and a wage that we would see as horribly low but is enough to house, feed and clothe his family of eight, then who are we to say that he shouldn't have that job? Because you can be sure that if the factory was forced to pay more and spend more it would probably just close and move to another third-world country, leaving many workers as destitute as before.

I also don't have the answer.

Cheers
Dave

[bitingmidge]

Thanks Dave, I think that anyone who has actually worked in those areas feels a certain sense of helplessness.

On many occasions while "struggling" to raise my own family here, and working in Asia I had a great sense of conflict, knowing that just the price of the airfare I had bought to get there would have kept a family alive for a lifetime and sent the kids to schools as well.

Here's a graph that puts "wealth" into perspective:

http://money.cnn.com...x.htm?iid=HP_LN


Cheers,

P

[Ken Gracey]

I have no problem, with different pay rates for different counties, But I didn't notice everybody skipped the second part to the question.... Would You Pay More, if it meant better pay and conditions, for the workers at foxcomm ???

[pegi]

[Hi all
can't help to get on the debate....I have been working in developing countries for years especially in Cambodia training women to raise their income through skills training and other means...micro finance and so on. I touched on prostitution and child ######, not an easy daily life to face... The name of the game is easy. the results are hard.

Firstly,there score of middle men that are scouring the country side to recruit/buy young women from the farm and keep them in factories under at time insane conditions( this may have changed) tho I doubt. What you have to look at is that the big companies like Apple and the rest...Wallmart , Nike etc look for the cheapest production and the highest profit. That is where the problem lies.....the HUGE profits of the these companies that is pseudo passed onto the consummers or goes straight in their pockets. Now profits is the word. There is a huge disparity. Why so much? to what end result? Why do you need to become a multi billionaire to be happy? What is driving you? This obsession with greed.

Secondly, when a few people start to travel and see the price of things being sold at exhorbitant prices their heart sinks. How could thy explain what they earn and the end result. Would not you want to have a little more butter on your bread instead of fighting 17h a day for a pitance. Rage sets in...Competition? what competition? The control of products is left to the rules and regulations of poor countries( which are basically NIL) They wash their hands of any responsibilities...PURE PROFIT again. So under the guise of slick products and cheap we screw up other fellow humans. We are all complicit to this game wether you like it or not.


Thirdly going off shore may be great but it is depleting this very country of talents, skills,but that is a different story. ( I have no political affiliation at all)

So what to do? It is important to put pressure on big companies like Apple who sell fantastic products to realise( and they know it) that exploitation is not the way to go.

I will bet you that if they are made in America the price to consumers will the same...only the profits will be less. So where does the problem reside? The disparity of wealth as was said. No wonder people are fed up with lies, disparité of wealth, insane salaries...all that is totally unsustainable in the long run and we are starting to see the consequences of this mentality.

So, I agre it is important to put pressure on Apple and make them realise that consummers are aware of this disgusting disparity.

Pegi

bitingmidge, on 12 February 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Thanks Dave, I think that anyone who has actually worked in those areas feels a certain sense of helplessness.

On many occasions while "struggling" to raise my own family here, and working in Asia I had a great sense of conflict, knowing that just the price of the airfare I had bought to get there would have kept a family alive for a lifetime and sent the kids to schools as well.

Here's a graph that puts "wealth" into perspective:

http://money.cnn.com...x.htm?iid=HP_LN


Cheers,

P

[pegi]

Ken that is where I do not agree. There is no need to pay more for products The problem resides in the HUGE profits. May be we can ask Apple to reduce profits and then the shareholders will scream. But what a about a reasonable profit? There is no such thing in our society where greed reigns is there?

Ken Gracey, on 12 February 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

I have no problem, with different pay rates for different counties, But I didn't notice everybody skipped the second part to the question.... Would You Pay More, if it meant better pay and conditions, for the workers at foxcomm ???

[Ken Gracey]

Thats a very good point Pegi, Apple should actually reduce its profits by 1% and so should Foxcom and give it back to there workers.

[JZ]

Firstly - what is that pay worth to the workers in their country? I'm not defending what they get paid but just asking is that equivalent to us getting paid the average pay per day here?
also, I hate how the media is focusing on Apple here, yes their products are made there but so are hundreds of other electronic products from other companies, if they are gonna make a fuss about Foxconn hit all the companies up that get products made there.

[Ken Gracey]

Foxcomm target, people from poorer areas, to come and work there at lower rates than the local workers get, which is just simple exploitation, Apple has always played the nice guy card, and at the end of the day you can't play the nice guy, while supporting a company who rips off its staff, apple needs to show some leadership, before the shine comes off them, and people stop buying there gear on principle.

[Islandhead]

The more reputable media have been spreading the blame. Saw one this afternoon (can't remember which channel) that basically said that if you wanted to boycott Foxconn you would have to pretty much give up all the tech you own.

But I agree that Apple are getting a rough deal in the media at the moment. They are always the first and sometimes only company mentioned in any Foxconn story.

[pegi]

[Hi Dave, have also live in HK for 4 years just after the handover and went to Zuhai and Schenzen regularly.

Yes there were hundreds of factories and people working in abject conditions. (human life is cheap there). But I find your argument really weird in a sense that you seem to dismiss the humanitarian conditions of work. The human factor in working for a landlord/mandarin/CEO/directors and the lot. Would this mean that because they are living in lesser conditions they have their lot mapped out ...no question asked? and us the DEVELOPPED countries benefits from all this...no questions asked.

If it were not for huge profits demanded from shareholders and stakeholders we would still have a manufacturing industries in western countries. But what dictates these absurd situation and condition is RETURN/ PROFITS. I am not trying to reinvent the wheel but I am asking questions as to the conditions of our fellow humans. Why can't you expect that these people from Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Burma,China not entitled to better ways of life? You know why? it is because we want to keep our privileges and goodies , we perpetuate the system. Because we feed the system. I feed the system.

So what am I doing, I simply sponsor a family that I used to live with in Phnom Penh. And I will know that none of them will live in abject poverty or working in factories where they can even go to the toilet. That is my contribution in this unjust world.

It is not a question of perception but a reality that half of the world is starving while the other half like ourselves enjoy the benefits.

Sorry to be so abrupt but these sort of things really get to me when I have seen FIRST hand what as fellow human we do to others to make our wheel turn. But on the other hand you can always say what has changed since time immemorial?



Gigi

Dave Bullard, on 12 February 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

Great reply, Pete. I lived in Hong Kong for eight years and travelled frequently to the mainland, and I know how bad working conditions are there. I haven't been to the Foxconn factories, but expect that conditions there aren't as bad as other factories.

As you say, it's a question of relativity ... you can't expect first-world working conditions in a third-world country, even though you can strive for it as an overseas partner/customer/investor. But you then hit the point where working conditions are so good, as in Australia, that the expense of running a factory outstrips the income you gain from those goods, as in Australia.

Almost all our products come from countries with an underpaid peasant workforce, so before we throw stones at companies like Apple we need to identify ourselves – the consumers – as the point of demand.

I think it's also a question of perception. If a person with a starving family and no education is ecstatic to find a job that has long hours, dangerous conditions and a wage that we would see as horribly low but is enough to house, feed and clothe his family of eight, then who are we to say that he shouldn't have that job? Because you can be sure that if the factory was forced to pay more and spend more it would probably just close and move to another third-world country, leaving many workers as destitute as before.

I also don't have the answer.

Cheers
Dave

[pegi]

There have been many companies that have in the limelight for quite a while. Just to name a few.... WallMArt, Nike, Gap, Polo, Heifinger( or something like that) Cerruti, Beneton (famous United colours slogans while slugging the others)

Read Naomi Klein, Noam Chomsky, Arundaya, Jing Jong and many other that have rebelled against developing countries exploitation...Apple is just coming to the surface.

Islandhead, on 12 February 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

The more reputable media have been spreading the blame. Saw one this afternoon (can't remember which channel) that basically said that if you wanted to boycott Foxconn you would have to pretty much give up all the tech you own.

But I agree that Apple are getting a rough deal in the media at the moment. They are always the first and sometimes only company mentioned in any Foxconn story.

[Ken Gracey]

I to have worked in Malaysia, hong kong, Indonesia, Russia, and 27 other counties, but to be honest the working conditions in china and Indonesia blew me away, we really live a privileged life in Australia.

[Ken Gracey]

I think you are right Pegi, apple just employs people in more fancy sweat shops, than the clothing companies do !

[bitingmidge]

Ken Gracey, on 12 February 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

I think you are right Pegi, apple just employs people in more fancy sweat shops, than the clothing companies do !

No, Apple buys it's product from companies who employ people in more fancy sweat shops, than the clothing companies do, but they are the same companies that HP, Dell, and all those others mentioned above do.

To answer your question though Ken, would I still buy the product?

Well I bought a $6,000 MacPlus didn't I?

How much was the first MacBook, the one that looked like a handbag? $2,500?? I bought one of those too.

Yep, we'd all pay more if there was a level playing field. Or find a new hobby.

Cheers,

P

[Ken Gracey]

Well I did buy a Mac plus way back when, I think it cost as much as Tasmania, plus a 10 meg rodime drive for $2100 a month later. Trouble is I can't remember if they where made in the states or Asia back them ?

[pegi]

Totally agree with you Ken, China is the worst of the lot. But this is an interesting political debate. I am not scared to voice my opinions on that one because I have seen it ,live it , and am acutely aware of it.

Ken Gracey, on 12 February 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I to have worked in Malaysia, hong kong, Indonesia, Russia, and 27 other counties, but to be honest the working conditions in china and Indonesia blew me away, we really live a privileged life in Australia.